Clive Bull is Leading Britain's Conversation, including the Health Hour from 9pm
15 August 2017, 11:26
This is the moment that Maajid Nawaz brilliantly took down a caller who said that states should only have one ethnicity.
Carl in Birmingham told him that diversity had failed and that Japan works better as a society because they only have one culture and ethnicity.
Carl said: "Diversity has failed. So you or the people in that situation have to argue why diversity works."
Maajid then asked him: "When you say 'you and people like you', what do you mean? Do you mean brown people?
"Do me the honour, although you may think I'm less intelligent than you, not being white, answer the question. Do you think a state just for white people is a justifiable aspiration."
Carl then responded: "I think it's justifiable in the sense that it would result in a more well-functioning society. Mass immigration has not helped this society.
"Ethno-states function better. You can't argue against that."
But Maajid hit back firmly, saying: "I don't have to argue jack with you. You have to prove to me why I don't contribute to society as much as a white person.
"People like you owe me an apology. Do you know why? Because I grew up running from people like you who were carrying hammers, spitting at me and trying to attack me because of the colour of my skin.
"So you justify to me why you think I'm contributing less to this society than someone white like you."
Maajid asked whether he was a white supremacist and Carl insisted that he wasn't, because "I admit Jews and East Asians on average are more intelligent than whites".
That riled Maajid, who said: "When I was saying you think you're more intelligent than me, I knew it. I knew you believed in this pseudo-science of ethnicities being smarter than others.
"Which is why, though you admit that Asians may be smarter than you, you do think you're smarter than blacks as a race, don't you?"
Carl's answer: "Are you saying science is racist?"
Listeners were shocked by what they heard:
It's actually painful listening to this.— Katja (@katnappd) August 15, 2017
"This isn't racism, this is facts".
Pull the other one!
Watch the full, remarkable clip at the top of the page.