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7 May 2017, 11:28 | Updated: 7 May 2017, 12:38
Katie Hopkins made some generalisations about parents allowing their children to transition at a young age. Then Sam, a mother of a five-year-old trans boy, changed Katie's mind.
Recents figures show that a five-year-old was referred to a specialist NHS clinic in Wales as a result of transgender feelings last year. Katie couldn't believe it.
On her Sunday morning LBC show, she said she thinks parents are too quick to identify their child as trans, and made some generalisations about the parents who do so - calling them 'vegan, quinoa-eating, liberals'.
But one caller changed her mind: Sam from Kent.
Sam told Katie: "I am actually a mother of a five-year-old, he was born female, he is now male. I'd like to put out there, I don't eat quinoa, I'm not a vegan, just to make that really clear.
Katie, laughing, replied: "That's a good point of clarity, Sam."
She added: "How did you make that decision that it's not just your daughter deciding to wear some boys things, how do know they want to be a boy, to the point when they've decided to start school as a boy?"
Sam said: "Firstly, I have older children as well, I don't want to come across as some crazy, bonkers, first-time mum.
"Secondly I don't know if he will end up as a boy, I don't know that. I don't know if this is a phase, I don't know if it's to do with any kind of autistic traits that he displays sometimes, because there is a link between transgender and autism.
"I don't know if it's to do with something that went on maybe when he was younger, we had quite a stressful period in our lives, and sometimes there's another train of thought that, as like a protection mechanism, children can switch."
Katie then asked: "How do you know, how do you know, Sam? What does he do? What does he show you?...What does he do that makes you know this stuff? Does he say 'I don't want to be..'?"
Sam said: "Just to be clear as well, it wasn't just a case, he didn't get up one day and say 'I want to be a boy' and I went 'oh, ok, let's do that'.
"From a really young age, I'm talking like two, two and a half, why do you keep calling me a girl? I'm not a girl. Why do you call me a girl? This question, question, question.
"Questions around genitals, not age appropriate questions around genitals. 'When will my willy grow, why haven't I got one, where is it?'.
"You know, questions that I wouldn't expect a child of that age to even worry about. Even think about. You know my other children have never questioned when genitalia would become any different."
Katie asked how Sam is approaching her son's identity in school, asking whether she changed her child's name.
Sam answered: "He actually got quite a gender-neutral name by chance anyway, and again, when I had him I hadn't...a bit like Sam actually, so that kind of wasn't too much of a problem.
"He says 'oh, I want to chance my name to this, that or the other'. I said you're not changing your name to anything. You're not old enough to make the decision."
Katie said: "Sam, I'm so interested in your call, I could talk to you for another hour, but I'm not allowed...I want to thank you for coming on air. I want to thank you for calling in after I made a wild insult to all people that we were talking about, the type of mum as I had decided was vegan quinoa-eating soul.
"You've changed my mind in terms of how mums sound. You don't sound at all as I expected, you don't sound in the way that I described you, and I think I owe you an apology for suggesting that you were those sorts of mum.
"You've opened my eyes to a more rational way of thinking and dealing with this where you are just allowing your child to present in the way that they feel comfortable at the moment.
"I think Hopkins may have just changed her mind slightly in the last second there. Sam, thank you."
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